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Gagosian Quarterly

April 10, 2020

THe Space Is inthe Color

Stanley Whitney reflects on the evolution of his work with Louise Neri, from his formative early days in New York to the pivotal period he spent living and working in Rome, arriving at the highly distinctive paintings for which he is now known. They explore the diverse and surprising influences of art and music on Whitney’s oeuvre, as well as his process and practice.

Stanley Whitney, Roma 20, 2020 (detail), oil on linen, 24 × 24 inches (61 × 61 cm)

Stanley Whitney, Roma 20, 2020 (detail), oil on linen, 24 × 24 inches (61 × 61 cm)

Louise Neri

Louise Neri has been a director at Gagosian since 2006, working with artists and developing exhibitions, editorial projects, and communications across the global platform. A former editor of Parkett magazine, she has authored and edited many books and articles on contemporary art. Beyond the exhibitions she has organized for Gagosian, she cocurated the 1997 Whitney Biennial and the 1998 São Paulo Bienal, among numerous international projects.

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Stanley Whitney

Stanley Whitney’s vibrant abstract paintings unlock the linear structure of the grid, imbuing it with new and unexpected cadences of color, rhythm, and space. Deriving inspiration from sources as diverse as Piet Mondrian, free jazz, and American quilt-making, Whitney composes with blocks and bars that articulate a chromatic call-and-response in each canvas. Photo: Miranda Leighfield

Louise Neri  Stanley, do you realize it’s nearly thirty years ago that we met in New York?

Stanley Whitney  I remember it well.

LN At your studio on Cooper Square.

SW That’s right!

LN One of the points of departure for discussing how to make your first show with the gallery—in Rome—is the impact that living and working in Rome during the 1990s has had on your work, the paradigm shift that occurred.

SW I would say that it was the beginning of my mature work. Rome and then Egypt were where I put the last pieces of the puzzle together.

LN How so?

SW The experience of being there, especially the ancient buildings, brought architecture into my painting. When you walk into the Roman Colosseum, you really feel, from the first brick to the last brick, how human they are. And then walking around, you see ancient and modern Rome side by side and how they relate, in terms of the streets, the apartment buildings; you come across things, exposed walls, ruins . . .

LN And the incidence of color.

SW Yes. The color of the architecture, and the different light qualities in sun and shade. These kinds of experiential shifts became interesting to me. So, Rome was a really important part of being able to bring all these things together.

LN  Concretely, what appeared in your painting around that time was a tectonic, partitioned structure, in addition to it being rhythmic and dynamic. Can you discuss this eureka moment and the mechanics of the shift?

SW   When I was in Italy, I started looking at Giorgio Morandi. Morandi was key to my being in Italy: the way he put things together, how quiet they were, how things touch.

LN He rarely used outlines.

SW Yes, exactly, it was more about shape and mass. So I started getting rid of some of my own gestures. I was freaking out, wondering what it was going to turn into. But I just followed the painting process and it told me what to do. And little by little, the mark-making, the hand gesture, started to turn into shape. Which I was quite surprised about. But then I realized: the color is in the space. For example, take Mondrian and his act of making a black line, a red line, or a blue line: physically, it’s nothing, but mentally, it’s huge—just to shift that line. Mondrian was another key for me: when I started getting more into abstract painting, I wanted more freedom. I really wasn’t a storyteller and I wanted to have a more universal language.

The Space Is in the Color: Stanley Whitney

Stanley Whitney, Untitled, 1997, oil on linen, 72 ¾ × 85 ¼ inches (184.8 × 216.5 cm)

The Space Is in the Color: Stanley Whitney

Stanley Whitney in his studio in Rome, mid-1990s. Photo: Athina Ioannoy

LN Can you elaborate?

SW As a young painter, I was always trying to figure out what my subject matter was. I didn’t know. To me, painting is painting—Velázquez, Veronese, even Courbet’s paintings of stags in the snow excite me. So I’m not a strict modernist in terms of how I look at painting. Every artist has to come up with their own idea of subject matter, and I had a lot of issues to work through, in terms of my identity as a painter. When I first came to New York in 1968, it was all about Color Field painting, which I was very critical of. I liked the color, but—

LN The color but not the field? [laughs]

SW Yes, it really was that—the color, not the field. I really didn’t know how I would fit into the modern idea of painting. So I went back to black-and-white drawing. And slowly, slowly, I made my way through my drawing to the color. I was thinking to myself, I want space like Pollock, but I want color and depth like Rothko, which seem so opposite of each other. How could I have both? At that time there were so many rules and regulations in New York about painting. And I was trying to figure out what I had, what I could bring to it, where I fit in. So during those years I struggled and struggled and struggled . . .

The Space Is in the Color: Stanley Whitney

Sandro Botticelli, Adoration of the Magi, c. 1475 (detail), tempera on panel, 43 ¾ × 52 ¾ inches (111 × 134 cm), Galleria degli Uffizi, Florence, Italy. Photo: Bridgeman Images

The Space Is in the Color: Stanley Whitney

Giorgio Morandi, Natura morta (Still Life), 1960, oil on canvas, 11 ¾ × 17 ¾ inches (30 × 45 cm) © 2020 Artists Rights Society (ARS), New York. Photo: © Christie’s Images/Bridgeman Images

LN  So what did you have that was yours?

SW  Music was always there for me as a kind of rhythm—getting in rhythm, having rhythm. People sometimes find my paintings odd because of the rhythm. The idea of a painting being so still but so rhythmic at the same time. So getting the rhythm of the painting is really important to me; there’s no beginning to it and no end, and I can shift around in it from any one spot. And I want to make paintings to be lived with, not just looked at. When you live with my paintings, you begin to see different things; they’re always different.

LN  So, is color the structuring rhythm?

SW  I always say that the color makes the structure, the structure doesn’t make the color. I don’t build a structure and then fill in the color. I wanted to devise a structure that would give me total freedom with color. As a young painter, I would look at, say, Corot and admire the little red dot in the corner of a painting while understanding that he had to do all the rest before he could paint that red dot. Whereas I wanted to develop an approach that would allow me to put down whatever color I want immediately.

Music was always there for me as a kind of rhythm—getting in rhythm, having rhythm.

Stanley Whitney

LN  Can you speak more about the impact of music on your art?

SW  By the time I was in high school, around 1964, I was listening to Ornette Coleman’s Shape of Jazz to Come, John Coltrane’s Love Supreme, Thelonious Monk, Charlie Mingus, and others; these musicians were great revelations to me. Before that, I was thinking about joining the army! [laughs] But when I discovered jazz, I realized that there was a whole other world. So when I first went to art school, I thought of Cézanne in terms of Charlie Parker and the rhythm. After five years at art school in the Midwest, looking at Munch and Goya, I came to New York and went to jazz clubs—Five Spot, Village Gate. I wanted to hang out with the musicians—but I knew I wasn’t one of them.

LN Did Pop art interest you?

SW As an artist, you decide what to bring into your studio, and I didn’t want Pop, I didn’t see it. Except maybe for the color.

LN What about its humor and declarative quality?

SW Yes, the idea of caricature, the cartoon, is important to me. Cartoons are so American. When asked what he wanted from America, Picasso famously responded, “Bring me the Sunday paper with the cartoons and a baseball uniform”!

More importantly, though, I met Robert Rauschenberg and started hanging around with him and the Castelli crowd. But being a black artist, it wasn’t a scene that I was interested in; there weren’t many black artists downtown. Interestingly, there was a black presence around Clement Greenberg, because of his love of jazz. So if you went to a Greenberg party, there it was. Not at the other parties, which were really segregated. So that was one reason to hang out in Greenberg’s scene. But still, I found it lacking, and so I dropped out of it and became more independent.

The Space Is in the Color: Stanley Whitney

Stanley Whitney, Untitled, 2018, oil on linen, 12 × 12 inches (30.5 × 30.5 cm)

LN  Did Rauschenberg influence you in any way?

SW  Yes, he was so brilliant and interesting. There was a kind of freedom in him. He could make art from nothing. Once we were walking around the streets and he saw an old fire hose. The next time I saw that hose, he had made a work out of it, adding a piece of blue glass for a light, and placing it on top of a piece of metal. So I learned from watching him how to just pick things up and use them. When I was living in Rome and visited the Etruscan Museum and saw the sarcophagi all stacked up in there, the thought suddenly came to me: I’ll stack the color in my paintings. I realized I could get to the color immediately without having to do anything else first. So I’m always thinking about what I can get from who—even the surface of my paintings comes from looking at Botticelli’s paintings, so rich and yet so matte.

LN  Were there New York painters who mattered to you at the time?

SW  I did admire Jackson Pollock’s sense of freedom. I think Pollock will haunt every painter in New York forever. He made painters get rid of their brushes, paint with a stick, paint with a broom, paint with a mop, paint on the ground. I tried all that stuff, but then I decided to return to a more traditional kind of painting. Once I left the New York School, so to speak, I was totally on my own. I was thinking about the idea of space and music; I was thinking about how Munch painted, about Cézanne, and slowly things were coming together for me. The last piece of the puzzle was density. I thought that if I put the colors next to one another, I would lose the space. Then I realized—the space is in the color.

With countries, borders are fought for. In my paintings, the colors are fought for.

Stanley Whitney
The Space Is in the Color: Stanley Whitney

Stanley Whitney, In Memory of Tomorrow, 2020, oil on linen, 96 × 96 inches (243.8 × 243.8 cm)

LN  Can you describe your current process in more detail?

SW  I just start painting. I don’t plan it out. Since I know what the form is, I can start anywhere, get there immediately, and just keep working. I don’t make color studies in advance. I put a color down and then I respond to it. Once you have something on the canvas, it’s the beginning of a relationship and I start to deal with it.

LN  How did you arrive at the square format that now typifies your paintings?

SW  During those first years in Italy, all my paintings were rectangular, landscape format. I got to the square by thinking about Agnes Martin, and the idea of a non-shape.

LN  You mean neutral, symmetrical?

SW Yes, a neutral kind of space. It was difficult for me to establish a rhythm with the square because it was a tighter space, but I enjoyed the challenge. I had to stay center stage, not move left or right. And I’m staying right here!

The Space Is in the Color: Stanley Whitney

Stanley Whitney, In Memory of Tomorrow, 2020 (detail)

LN  Can you also discuss the variance in scale within this square format, from twelve inches right up to ninety-six? Each of them has quite a distinct character.

SW  The twelve-by-twelve-inch painting is about a hand gesture, whereas the seventy-two-by-seventy-two, or the ninety-six-by-ninety-six, requires me to use my entire body. In between it’s like easel painting, although I fix them to the wall.

LN  Do you revisit paintings once you’ve painted them? Do you ever work back over them?

SW   No, I don’t, I really don’t. I can’t. I’m on and off them very quickly.

LN  Perhaps this is why they live in a sort of perpetual dynamic state. They don’t seem constrained in any sense.

SW That’s right. When I paint them, I never know where the edge is going to be. I think of colors as borders. With countries, borders are fought for. In my paintings, the colors are fought for.

Artwork © Stanley Whitney; photos: Rob McKeever, unless otherwise noted

Brice Marden: Sketchbook (Gagosian, 2019); Lee Lozano: Notebooks 1967–70 (Primary Information, 2010); Stanley Whitney: Sketchbook (Lisson Gallery, 2018); Kara Walker: MCMXCIX (ROMA, 2017); Louis Fratino,Sept ’18–Jan. ’19 (Sikkema Jenkins & Co., 2019); Jean-Michel Basquiat: The Notebooks (Princeton University Press, 2015); Keith Haring Journals (Penguin Classics Deluxe Edition, 2010).

Book Corner
Private Pages Made Public

Megan N. Liberty explores artists’ engagement with notebooks and diaries, thinking through the various meanings that arise when these private ledgers become public.

Stanley Whitney in his New York studio, surrounded by paintings and drawings

Stanley Whitney: Rhythm and Vision

While preparing his first exhibition with Gagosian, in Rome, Stanley Whitney speaks with Louise Neri in his New York studio about how he arrived at his unique and intuitive approach to color and space in painting, employing a dynamic fusion of preordained structure and improvisation.

Stanley Whitney, Naples, 1997.

Stanley Whitney: The Ruins

For American painter Stanley Whitney, Italy remains a central and enduring source of inspiration. Matthew Jeffrey Abrams, the author of a new monograph on the artist, reflects on the profound and far-reaching influence of Italian art and architecture on Whitney’s art.

Image of Jordan Wolfson taking a mirror selfie

Picture Books: Sam Lipsyte and Jordan Wolfson

The third book published by Picture Books, an imprint organized by Emma Cline and Gagosian, is Sam Lipsyte’s Novella Friend of the Pod. Accompanying the text is a new artwork by Jordan Wolfson. In celebration of this forthcoming publication, Lipsyte and Wolfson speak with their mutual friend Joey Frank about the year 1993, eroticism and art, and what the proliferation of podcasts is doing to the ego.

Setsuko and Y.Z. Kami

In Conversation
Setsuko and Y.Z. Kami

The artists address their shared ardor for poetry, the surfaces of painting, and nature.

Author, curator, and podcaster Katy Hessel met with the artist Somaya Critchlow to discuss Hessel’s latest publication, The Story of Art without Men.

Katy Hessel: The Story of Art without Men

Author, curator, and podcaster Katy Hessel met with the artist Somaya Critchlow to discuss Hessel’s latest publication, The Story of Art without Men.

Photograph of the execution of Giuseppe Penone’s frottages in La Tourette, Éveux, France. Giuseppe Penone, Le Bois Sacré (The Sacred Forest), 2022, prepared canvas oil and wax pastel

Giuseppe Penone À La Tourette

Le Couvent Sainte-Marie de La Tourette, in Éveux, France, is both an active Dominican priory and the last building designed by Le Corbusier. As a result, the priory, completed in 1961, is a center both religious and architectural, a site of spiritual significance and a magnetic draw for artists, writers, architects, and others. This fall, at the invitation of Frère Marc Chauveau, Giuseppe Penone will be exhibiting a selection of existing sculptures at La Tourette alongside new work directly inspired by the context and materials of the building. Here, Penone and Frère Chauveau discuss the power and peculiarities of the space, as well as the artwork that will be exhibited there.

Image of Mehdi Ghadyanloo working on Finding Hope (2019), a mural in the lobby of the Congress Centre for the Annual Meeting of the World Economic Forum, Davos, Switzerland, 2019

Mehdi Ghadyanloo

Negar Azimi speaks with the artist about his murals in Tehran, his preoccupation with slides, and his inspirations from Giorgio de Chirico to Alfred Hitchcock.

Image of Diane von Furstenberg. Photo: Michel Arnaud

Fashion and Art: Diane von Furstenberg

Derek Blasberg speaks with fashion designer Diane von Furstenberg about her relationship with Andy Warhol, the liberations of the 1970s, nature as the ultimate influence, and why it is essential to keep a diary.

Black and white image of the interior of Cy Twombly’s apartment in Rome

Cy Twombly: Making Past Present

In 2020, the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston, announced their plan for a survey of Cy Twombly’s artwork alongside selections from their permanent ancient Greek and Roman collection. The survey was postponed due to the lockdowns necessitated by the coronavirus pandemic, but was revived in 2022 with a presentation at the J. Paul Getty Museum in Los Angeles from August 2 through October 30. In 2023, the exhibition will arrive at the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston. The curator for the exhibition, Christine Kondoleon, and Kate Nesin, author of Cy Twombly’s Things (2014) and advisor for the show, speak with Gagosian director Mark Francis about the origin of the exhibition and the aesthetic and poetic resonances that give the show its title: Making Past Present.

Brutalisten, Stockholm, 2022. Photo: Attilio Maranzano

Brutalisten: An Interview with Carsten Höller

This spring, Carsten Höller launched Brutalisten, a new restaurant concept in Stockholm and the latest embodiment of his long-term culinary and artistic project called the Brutalist Kitchen. The twenty-eight-seat restaurant features a menu overseen by chef Stefan Eriksson that adheres to three classifications: “semi-brutalist” dishes (using oil or minimal ingredients), “brutalist” dishes (using salt and water), and “orthodox-brutalist” dishes (no additional ingredients). For the Quarterly, Höller speaks with Gagosian directors Serena Cattaneo Adorno and Mark Francis about this terminology, the importance of experimentation, and the fortuitous side effects of brutalist cuisine.

Black and white image of Laura Paulson

An Eye on the Market: Laura Paulson

Laura Paulson, former global chairman of Christie’s and current chief operating officer for Gagosian Art Advisory, speaks with the Quarterly’s Alison McDonald about the state of the art market in the wake of the pandemic.