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Gagosian Quarterly

Summer 2023 Issue

The African Desperate

Artist and filmmaker Martine Syms teamed up with writer and poet Rocket Caleshu to create the 2022 film The African Desperate. Starring the artist Diamond Stingily as Palace, the film received rave reviews for its honest and unflinching portrayal—and parody—of the art world. Mixing genres and proceeding according to Syms’s singular aesthetic vision, The African Desperate leads audiences through a twenty-four-hour period in Palace’s life and into questions about education, romance, race, and more. Syms, Caleshu, and Stingily met with Fiona Duncan to discuss the film’s creation.

Still from The African Desperate (2022), directed by Martine Syms; pictured: Diamond Stingily. Photo: courtesy Dominica, Inc.

Still from The African Desperate (2022), directed by Martine Syms; pictured: Diamond Stingily. Photo: courtesy Dominica, Inc.

Rocket Caleshu

Rocket Caleshu is a writer based in Los Angeles, where he is the director of Ashtanga Yoga Glassell. Photo: Danielle Levitt

Fiona Duncan

Fiona Duncan is a Canadian-American author and organizer and the founder of the social literary practice Hard to Read. Duncan’s debut novel, Exquisite Mariposa (Soft Skull Press), won a 2020 Lambda Award. She is currently developing a narrative biography and critical study of the transdisciplinary American artist Pippa Garner.

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Diamond Stingily

Diamond Stingily is an artist and actress who was born in 1990 in Chicago, lives and works in New York, and is currently on a residency at the Art Explora foundation, Paris, in collaboration with the Cité internationale des arts. She acted in HBO’s Random Acts of Flyness and was the lead in Martine Syms’s debut feature film, The African Desperate. Photo: Farah Al Qasimi 

Martine Syms

Martine Syms obtained an MFA from Bard College, Annandale-on-Hudson, New York, in 2017 and a BFA from the School of the Art Institute of Chicago in 2007. Syms has earned wide recognition for a practice that combines conceptual grit, humor, and social commentary. Using a combination of video, installation, and performance, often interwoven with explorations of technique and narrative, Syms examines representations of Blackness and its relationship to vernacular, feminist thought, and radical traditions. Photo: Danielle Levitt

Fiona DuncanHow were the Independent Spirit Awards?

Diamond StingilyIt was everything I expected and everything I didn’t expect at the same time. I’d never been to something like that before. I’ve been to art galas.

Martine SymsIt was really nerve-racking, honestly. You start to be, like, “What if they call my name and I’ve got to get up there?” I don’t want to be one of those people that’s like, “Oh, I didn’t prepare anything—oh, this is so crazy, I didn’t think this would happen … ” But then you also don’t want to be like, “Yeah, we knew … ” [unfurls scroll]

Rocket CaleshuWe had more fun once we weren’t chosen for the award. The quality of the hang got looser and it was easier to appreciate how bizarre it was.

FDDid you watch the Oscars?

DSNot really. It was on but I didn’t really participate in watching it. There was one movie that I’d never heard of that was winning a lot of awards—

MSAll Quiet on the Western Front?

RCThe German war movie?

MSBest Foreign Picture.

DSI said that I want me and [the actor] Bobbi [Salvör Menuez] to be in a war movie together. We could play two soldiers. Bobbi would be the hotheaded one and I’d be the one who’s like, I told you not to go out onto the field this time of night.

FDI asked about the awards because I’m curious what it’s been like to come from the art world and interact with the film industry. Do you think that people who watch The African Desperate from more of a film background or no culture-industry background know that you’re all established, celebrated contemporary artists? Do they understand this context?

MSFrom what I’ve heard, I don’t think people know that offhand, it’s more of a secondary thing that comes up, which is fun. I like that the movie’s embedded in our community of artists. Even if people don’t recognize everyone, they can tell there’s a group of friends or a sense of community around the film.

RCIt seemed like nonart people were really into comparing it to their industry.

FDBefore making this movie, did you have any background in or fantasies about set life?

DSI was on a TV show. Set life can be mundane when you’ve got to wait on the crew but each time I’ve been on set, I’ve felt like I was making something really important and special, so I’m very geeked up and happy to be there, even if I’m playing Candy Crush for a few hours.

MSI worked as an extra when I was a kid. My brother acted a lot and my mom had this thing where whatever interest one of us had, all of us would go do, because we were homeschooled. Those were the first sets that I was on and I really liked asking about how stuff was made. I like being on set—it’s exciting to me. Something’s happening everywhere you look. There’s a flutter. I miss it right now, actually.

RCIf you’re on the production side, there’s not a lot of waiting around. It’s always going. If you can saddle up, then it’s really fun.

FDI have friends who make films and are addicted to set life. Weird analogy, but it’s like how some people describe having multiple babies—you know those people who get that super MDMA-like flush after childbirth and just want to have more and more babies to get back to that high?

DSYeah, I’m a product of that, actually.

MSI’m also a product of that.

DSThere are a lot of Stingilys running around…

MS“Didn’t you love when we had a three-
month-old?”

FDWhat was the first scene you shot?

MSThe first scene we shot was Fern chasing after Palace.

RCWe were at this huge abandoned IBM campus. We were getting our bearings in an alternate universe.

MSTech City is like four square city blocks and hadn’t been used since 2001. That was where our campus was. On the first day of shooting, you want to choose something achievable that’s not too crazy and gets everybody in the groove.

The African Desperate

Martine Syms on the set of The African Desperate (2022). Photo: Brent David Freaney

FDWhat was the wildest scene to shoot?

DSFor me, that would probably be the sex scene.

MSI was going to say the driving scenes.

RCI was going to say when an extra’s dog went missing. For me personally, emotionally, with my sense of responsibility, that was the wildest day.

DSShooting the party scenes, the wildness was so subtle that it was sometimes like, What is even happening? I’m not going to put anyone on blast but this one extra kept dancing. He would not stop dancing. There would be no music—

MSNo one was even shooting.

RCI don’t think he could stop dancing if he tried.

FDThis one is for Rocket and Diamond: What’s Martine like as a director? What’s her leadership style?

DSMartine is open to letting the actor do what they want—but stick to the script. If there’s clear communication, there’s room to try new things. Martine’s good at communicating what they need and want and they’re a go-getter. They get stuff done. That’s a good director to have.

RCSomething that was really exciting for a lot of people in making this movie was this idea that there’s no one else who knows better than you know, like, “It’s you, you do your bit.” That level of accountability made it way more exciting than some standard hierarchical system in which everyone answers to someone above them. I think the clarity of Martine’s vision is the most important piece in making this work because it makes room for participation in that vision.

FDI wanted to flip the question on Martine and ask you about your leadership style.

MSMy style is to be really prepared so when I’m on set, I can play. Let’s see if I can remember this phrase from my guitar teacher many years ago—he said it in a very pithy, cool way that I can’t remember right now—but it was basically, “You don’t practice so you don’t forget, you practice so you can do whatever you want.” Improvisation becomes possible.

Communication is also really important to me. I try to check in and be talking with everybody to make sure we can bring our best. I kind of have a babysitter vibe, like, “Hey, are you hungry? Do you need this? Are we good? Are we feeling great?” It’s not that I’m babysitting people but I was a babysitter for a long time and I’m always doing that with myself. I could say I’m like a coach.

FDRocket and Martine, what was the cowriting process like? When did the script come into the process? Was Diamond already cast? Were there story contours?

MSThe role was written for Diamond. It emerged from a conversation we had where she was joking about what it would have been like if she’d gone to Bard, and that really sparked my mind. Rocket and I had been working on another screenplay the previous year. We were in the format and had been writing a lot.

RCThe idea was always to make a twenty-four-hour movie; it was going to be a last day at Bard that involved not-going and then going to a party with a lot of drugs. We had a long conversation with Diamond that we transcribed and that gave us more context. Pieces were figured out before the writing started and then the script came together super quickly.

FDI love that there’s a book of the script published, because in the film some of the dialogue moves so quickly, little references and jokes can slip by you. I also liked discovering differences between the shooting script and the final edit. There aren’t many differences—there’s the sex scene.

MSWith the sex scene, the first time we shot it, it just wasn’t working. It’s a really important scene, the emotional crux of the film. Luckily we had a very talented lead actress who was able to improvise—

DSMartine said it wasn’t working. She’s like a coach in this way where it’s like, “Get your water, like we’re doing it over . . . ”

MSWhen I say something wasn’t working, it didn’t feel real. I didn’t buy it. We all have really high standards and we were going to keep each other accountable to an emotional truth that we were trying to get across.

FDI love the sex scene so much. I love that [spoiler alert] the love interest gets penetrated. You could say it’s a failed hookup but it’s a complete onscreen sex scene because he gets fisted in the mouth. I don’t know how I’ll transcribe the face Diamond is making right now but I want it on the record.

MSIn the original script, I wanted it to be a cuter moment, but that honestly was feeling really fictional. I’ve had cute moments, but not in a time and place like that. So many people have come up to me and can’t even speak because they feel so seen by that scene. It’s true to a feeling. Also that character is supposed to be a parallel to the art world in a way. There’s something about his desiring gaze that feels wrong to accept. We were trying to resolve that tension when we were writing, and then when we were shooting, we realized it wouldn’t resolve.

The African Desperate

Still from The African Desperate (2022), directed by Martine Syms; pictured: Erin Leland and Diamond Stingily. Photo: courtesy Dominica, Inc.

FDHow did you cast the love interest?

MSI actually had a photo of Aaron Bobrow in my original treatment. After I came to New York to start putting the film together, I was talking through the casting with Bridget [Donahue, Syms’s gallerist, who cameos in the film] about the different people I was considering for his role. It could be this person, that person . . . I showed her Aaron’s picture and said, “I’m really looking for somebody like this.” And she said, “Why don’t you just get him?” I cold-called him and the rest is history.

FDDid you give him that haircut?

RCHe came that way.

MSThat was all him, baby.

DSThat was method acting, actually.

RCThat’s method.

FDSpeaking of method, Diamond, did you take acting classes?

DSI haven’t taken an acting class. But in Chicago, artists would make videos and I would be in those.

MSYou study films, though.

DSI do. I watch a lot of movies. Sometimes I’ll read a script while I’m watching a movie. I’ll rewatch movies until I know them by heart. I watched [John Cassavetes’s] Opening Night [1977] every night while we were filming upstate, I think that helped set the tone for me. Talking to the director also helps a lot, just having clear communication with the person who’s making the film and making sure you’re doing it the way they want you to do it.

FDYou’re very amazing in the movie. It’s everybody here’s star vehicle, but it’s especially Diamond’s star vehicle. Are you getting sent scripts?

DSYeah, I got some scripts.

FDA lot of authors and books are mentioned in the film: Sylvia Wynter, Colette Thomas, Fred Moten, Édouard Glissant, Isabelle Graw, that mushroom book [Anna Lowenhaupt Tsing’s The Mushroom at the End of the World, 2021], [Clarissa Pinkola Estés’s] Women Who Run with the Wolves [1992]. How did the curriculum emerge?

RCIt’s period 2017. What were people in this particular milieu using as templates for how they were thinking? Those were big ones then. It’s also about embedding ourselves with thinkers we have connected to and have strong relationships with. It’s not meant to be a joke, it’s earnest, and then its earnestness also eats itself a little bit and becomes funny, like the way Diamond played the scene where there’s a character reading Fred Moten’s The Undercommons [2013] maybe a little late to the game. Like, “Sorry, I read that in 2015.” It’s not even shade, there’s just a particular kind of humor in that.

DSArtists like to do that. Like, “Oh, you’re reading this book? I’m reading that book. Oh, you’re just starting to read that book? I read that book last summer when I was in Turks on the beach.” You don’t have to be going to art school for those conversations to happen—people like to top each other like that, like, “Oh, you’re intellectual? Let me tell you how many books I’ve read.”

RCYeah, it becomes a form of currency—it’s valuable.

MSI always tell people that if I’m trolling anyone, it’s myself. Like clearly I’ve read all those books. They were really important to me. It’s fun to have Easter eggs in the film.

DSIf you’re into Easter eggs, if you know my work, you’ll be like, Oh, Colette Thomas—Diamond has done a show based off of [The Testament of the] Dead Daughter [1954].

MSSelf-reflexivity is something I’m interested in, creating these breaks between fiction and the reality where somebody might be like, “Wait, what? That’s real. That’s fake. . . . ” The thing they think is fake is real, the thing they think is real is fake. I’m always going to try and find ways to sneak that in.

FDIs that a Birkin bag in the background on your shelf, Diamond?

DSIt’s a fake Birkin bag.

FDI like it. One Easter egg I thought of was the “Mental Slavery” sticker that’s in different locations in the film. It seemed like an intentional set piece.

MSIt was very intentional. I made it. It references “Redemption Song” [1980] by Bob Marley. That song and that phrase kept coming up for me. It’s one of those things that’s so cheesy but then at the same time really profound and meaningful. I liked having someone, especially a white person, with a sticker that said “mental slavery” on it. It’s really funny to me.

FDDo you remember what the days and weeks after shooting were like? I’ve heard a lot of people talk about the summer-camp effect of sets, the intensity of this social bubble and then the postpartum that can sometimes happen when you’re delivered back into the world after.

DSAs the actress, I was just waiting—waiting to see the trailer, excited to see how it would be edited. My energy was like, “Shit, I made a movie. I starred in a movie.” It takes a lot to make a movie and I was just grateful to have been a part of it.

MSImmediately upon coming back was such a weird feeling. You spend an insane amount of time with this village of people and then. . . . Let me think, September 2021 . . . I just slept. When I’m working on a project I don’t sleep well—it’s so cliché, but I honestly hadn’t slept. The second we stopped shooting, I was catching up on sleep. Then I was excited to start editing, I love editing, so I was really eager.

RCThere was also this thing like, You thought shooting was a lot of work? Well, post is a lot of work. Postproduction makes principal photography look really fun and easy.

FDSo what’s next for everybody?

MSSomething’s coming pretty soon, but I can’t talk about it yet.

DSWe’re in film now, we can’t talk about a lot of stuff.

MSYeah, sorry! We’re in the biz now—we’ve gone to the Spirit Awards. It’s all under wraps now.

FDI’ll get the scoop. I’ll get Hollywood Reporter on you.

Self portrait of Francesca Woodman, she stands against a wall holding pieces of ripped wallpaper in front of her face and legs

Francesca Woodman

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self portrait by Jamian Juliano-Villani

Jamian Juliano-Villani and Jordan Wolfson

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Black and white portrait of Frida Escobedo

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Black and white portrait of Maria Grazia Chiuri looking directly at the camera

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Portrait of artist Kelsey Lu

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Portrait of Jean-Michel Basquiat sitting inside his studio and in front of his paintings

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Painting in gray tones of a man in a suit and tie holding an industrial-looking carousel from which identical suited men hang as if on a dilapidated carnival ride

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Titus Kaphar and Derek Cianfrance both wearing large headphones and tee-shirts on a film set

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